Actually took the time to watch this. Incredibly powerful and worth your time. I wish I could be as eloquent when debating the topic.
For anyone interested in a 5+ hour refutation of every point Matthew Vines made by James White, click here:
There a a few rather interesting fallbacks to Mr. White’s counter argument. To start with the obvious, he develops credibility by repeatedly referring to himself as someone who has “written on the subject.” Anyone who is familiar with source accreditation knows that authorship in a public forum is not grounds for determining anything as credible.
Beyond that however, Mr. White makes several comments that are irrelevant and or misleading. For example his discussion on Matthew Vine’s emotional approach to explaining his message. There is little reason to assume that Matthew uses emotion as a tool to manipulate the audience, rather, it is likely that he uses emotion because he is feeling emotion. Not all displays on character are for the benefit of persuasion, but can and often are the result of actual human experience. And to take that line of thought and compare the Biblical homosexual argument and compare it directly to the argument for intergenerational love simply by the methodology of debate shows a gross misunderstanding of both issues. Just because two movements use similar methodology does not mean that they are of the same validity. The Great Awakening involved spiritual reform that centered on language such as “freedom” and “liberty” and “justice.” The Great Awakening however is not a direct lead into the American revolution that used the same language, and same methods of spreading passion for the cause, because the American revolution was not a Christian event, while the Awakening was. In that same way, homosexuality and intergenerational are not on the same level because they talk the same. Further more, Mr. White clearly has a skewed understanding of what is morally correct or otherwise when it comes to intergenerational love. By historical and cultural standards, Mary mother of Jesus was likely only 12-15 years old when she became pregnant, Joseph almost certainly being “inappropriately” older than her. Interesting that we can use Biblical marriages to counter argue gay marriage, but not intergenerational. Granted I believe that children should be of a certain age before making such a life choice, but if our culture dictates that an age such as 18 is the bench mark, then the Bible is not where we will draw adequate support for such a position.
Mr. White also draws the conclusion that homosexual monogamy is a rare thing. Saying that all you have to do is “do a little digging online to see the true public face of homosexuality” ignoring that it is hard to find figures on gay monogamy because gay marriage is illegal in most states, and that heterosexual monogamy is a rare find these days as well. It is not the sexuality but the personality of the couple that defines monogamy. To use a blind sighted understanding of who is and is not monogamous as Mr. White does leads to a radically inappropriate conclusion on whether or not gay people are capable of being moral people.
As far as homosexuals being incapable of starting families, it is true that a gay couple can not create a child by having sex with each other. But if the single boundary that we make to define family is the ability to bear children then we have a serious social and theological problem. Take for example a woman who is barren. She has never had the ability to bear children because it is not medically possible. Say then that she falls in love with a good man and they decide to adopt children because they can’t have their own. They adopt kids and attend church every sunday, throw birthday parties, and have family game night every thursday evening. Will we not call them a family simply on the grounds that they were incapable of creating their own children? No. They are a family as valid and as flawed as any other. Because the definition of family does not hinge of the ability to have reproductively oriented sex, but the ability to love those closest to you in a way that you don’t experience with anyone else. We are all God’s children, and the church is all one adopted family, and that is without any of us ever getting married to prove it.
He implies later that if two women adopt a child or two men, that child is either without a father or without a mother. We all know that this is untrue on a biological level, but what about a spiritual level? Isn’t God our father? When we were saved, did God not adopt us into his very real family that is the church and the kingdom? Is GOD not our FATHER? are we really willing to define the legitimacy of a family and the love of a couple on whether or not they can create a child and then have both a literal mother and father present? When really the only father we truly have is our Father in Heaven? Did jesus not say that he came to “turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in-law against her mother in-law; and a man’s own enemies will be in his household. The person who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me…” Matthew 10:35-37. Our modern American Christian idealism of what a family is and is not, is neither biologically relevant nor Biblically founded.
But perhaps one of Mr. White’s most profoundly disgusting statements is that the love Matthew Vines is defending is not “Christian love.” It is not “Christian love” he says because it goes against God’s creational decree. It goes against the very design of our bodies. And to this I must ask: is Christian love no more complicated or beautiful than ones ability to have biologically accurate sex with someone? The Scriptures paint a very different idea of what “Christian love” is. The Scriptures tell us that GOD IS LOVE. 1 John 4:7-12 reads as this: “Dear friends, let us love one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent His One and Only Son into the world so that we might live through Him. Love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Dear friends, if God loved us in this way, we must also love one another. No one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God remains in us and His love is perfected in us.”
It would seem that the pinnacle of “Christian love” is Christ himself. God gave His only son to die for us. THAT is Christian love. Not the ability to have children as a result of sex. That is a limited, overdramatic, Biblically irresponsible, mistreatment of God’s own Word and of His love. The love we are called to exhibit as Christians has nothing to do with who we marry or if we ever do. It depends completely on God’s love fo us and our proclamation of that love to others. We are called to love others as Christ loved us, not to love others but only call it legitimate when we can have heterosexual sex with in the confines of legal marriage.
These problems with Mr. White’s argument all occur only within the first half our of his overly long refutation. The very beginning of his argument shows a gross misunderstanding of the issue and the people who are a part of the community that he is attacking. I would go so far as to say that is shows a misunderstanding of basic Biblical teaching such as the love of God. I won’t go further because it is clear from the start that his argument is a jumbled mess of personal bias, with little to no consideration of those whom he is referring to.
I am not saying that his entire theology is bogus, nor that he or those that agree with him are bad people, simply that his argument does not hold.
I apologize if I appeared cross, it is just hard for me to stomach people attaching this particular issue without any real foundation to their claims. I am not expressing my opinion on Mr. White as a human being, as I love him very dearly as he is a creation of God just as much as myself.
I love you all!
People look at me as a vegan and conclude that since I stepped on a snail or because the vegetables I eat resulted in a tractor death for a squirrel somewhere in Paraguay that somehow vegans are hypocrites, which of course they’re not since perfection is an unattainable goal and is something to be driven towards, never actually achieved.
The difference between you and the vegan standing next to you is that while you’re both going to step on a bug tomorrow, they’ve decided to dedicate their lives to as little harm as possible, completely independent from what you do. So in no way does the protozoan life form they step on negate your responsibility for the lamb you’re paying a stranger to cut tomorrow. And falling 1% short of an unattainable goal is really good when you’re standing next to someone who won’t even try.
E. coli is very happy to see you! Staphylococcus aureus doesn’t have much expression though. These are my latest projects and are for my microbiology professor who supervised my research this last term. I hope she likes them!
Our churches should be the safest places in which to come out, not the most dangerous.
New York Vegans?
Are there any vegans near or in Ithaca NY? Because I am moving over there in August I was wondering if there are any vegans over there who can recommend places to get food and/or other vegan goods. Any suggestions?
Q:All of them?
I should have seen this coming. okay.
1. How long have you been Vegan?
I will have been vegan for two whole years next month. I turned Vegan the summer before my Freshman year of college, and was vegetarian for three years and change before that.
2. What turned you vegan/vegetarian?
I became vegetarian after a debate I had with my global perspectives teacher. It started as a conversation between myself and a few other students. I don’t remember how it started or why my teacher became involved. But my teacher (who is not vegan or vegetarian) posed the moral question “why is it better to eat some animals and not others?” I could not come up with a good answer to this. Because I could not reason why it was morally acceptable to eat some but not all animals, I concluded that it was not moral to eat any. So I became vegetarian because my meat-eating instructor played devil’s advocate. I became vegan when I decided that I was not doing enough. There was still so much pain and suffering that I was participating in via the consumption of other animal products. So from that moment on I dropped all of it and have been vegan ever since and plan to be vegan for the rest of my life.
3. What is you favorite meat substitute?
I don’t tend to be a fan of quote “meat substitutes.” I prefer just eating as healthy as I can without concerning myself with finding meat emulations. That being said, I have tried some that I really like. Tofurky brand Italian sausages are really good. I love putting them in pastas.
4. Be honest, did you enjoy the taste of meat and/or dairy before giving it up?
Yes I did. When I was young we got to choose what was for dinner on our birthdays and I always said steak and mash potatoes. Also milk is pretty big in my family, we used to drink it a lot. So yeah I enjoyed the taste back then, but I did not miss it once I had the conviction to stop
5. What is your favorite dairy-free milk?
I really like almond milk. It’s rich and creamy and it just tastes really nice :)
6. If you were to try and persuade someone to go Vegan/Vegetarian by showing them just 3 YouTube videos, what would you show them and why?
This first one is not a youtube video but it’s a video so I am using it: http://earthlings.com/?page_id=32
I am sure a lot of you, if not all, know about Earthlings. This documentary is profound and powerful and I think it does one of the best jobs at showing people the impact of their decisions with animals. I recommend that every watch that film. It’s free, not super long, but granted it is not easy to get through.
Next I would say Gary Yourofsky’s “Best Speech You will Ever Hear” I don’t believe he named it that. You can find it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4
I know that a lot of people don’t like Gary after things that he has said concerning rape and other topics. But I do think that this speech does a good job of encompassing the vegan persuasion. He might say things that people don’t like, but I think he was on point when he gave this speech.
Unfortunately I don’t spend much time looking for these things on youtube so I can’t think of any others. sorry.
7. What’s your favorite Vegan meal and what’s the recipe?
I love to make vegan pizza. I used to eat pizza all the time before so I was determined to make my own vegan pizza. The recipe is simple because all you really need to know is how to make the dough and then do what ever you want for the toppings. To make the dough you need:
1/2 cup warm water
1/2 teaspoon pure maple syrup
1 tablespoon dry baking yeast (1 package)
2 Tablespoons olive oil
1/4 teaspoon salt
1/8 teaspoon ground black pepper
1/2 cup whole wheat flour
1/2 to 3/4 cup unbleached white flour
I sometimes just use all wheat flour and dont bother with white flour. But you take the yeast and mic it with the warm water and maple syrup. You let that sit for about ten minutes so the yeast can get all bubbly. The you add the oil, flour, salt, pepper (I sometimes add oregano too) and mix well. Add the flour slowly while you mix until you get a workable non-sticky dough. Add more flour a little at a time if it still sticks yo your hands. The knead the dough on a lightly floured surface for about 5 minutes and then let sit in a bowl lightly coated in olive oil. Cover the bowl with a towel and leave the dough to rise for about 30-40 minutes. The dough should double in size. The knead the dough more and roll it out to about a one foot diameter circle. Add toppings and bake at 450 degrees Fahrenheit for 8-10 minutes.
8. Do You Take any Vitamin Supplements and if so what?
I do not take regular supplements but rather try to keep a well balanced diet each and every day. However, on days when I simply do not have time or availability to have enough B-vitamin foods, I do have some B-12 supplements in my pantry. They are from vegan sources and you can get them here
9. Favorite Farm animal and why
I don’t really have favorites when it comes to animals. I love all of them with an equal fervor.
10. Have you ever been to a farm sanctuary?
No sadly I have not. Though, I do plan to start my own, so I will be visiting them to learn how they go about doing things.
11. Do you sponsor any animals and if so what species and what organisation are they with?
I do not sponsor any animals at the moment, a side effect of being a poor college student. Hopefully I will be able to sponsor again soon once my spending drops down again :) I have in the past sponsored endangered animals such as orcas.
12. (15?) Favorite Vegan/ vegetarian celebrity and why
I don’t really pay attention to this because I find that a lot of the celebs that go veg end up going back on it.
13. (16?) Are your family also Vegan/Vegetarian? Regardless of the answer, how does this impact you?
No one else in my family is either vegan or vegetarian and honestly it can really hurt most of the time. It’s not that I think my family members are bad people, far from it, they just don’t understand and don’t care to look at what they are doing. So It really kills me their lack of compassion and species specific concern. But I am trying little by little to help them see the light in this issue.
14. (17?) Put these in order of most important reasons to go Vegan/Vegetarian to least- For the sake of the animals, for the sake of the environment, for the sake of finance and for the sake of your health. Why did you choose this order?
First would be the animals, then environment and then health. I became vegetarian and later vegan because of the animals. I can not bear to live knowing that another animal had to suffer for it. I refuse to ignorantly look away fromt the suffering of near 60 billion animals that are abused and killed every single year. I could not live with myself if maintained my body with the body of another. I love animals and that means that I put their needs first. Second was environment, even though it is impossible I think to differentiate between the two. What is good for the environment is also good for the animals. The environment is immensely important to me but it was not my initial reason for going veg. And lastly was health. Like I said loving means putting their needs ahead of my own. I think I am much healthier now than I ever was, but I would still be vegan were that not the case.
15. (20?) Was your transition to becoming Vegan/Vegetarian gradual or done in one go?
Like I said, I went vegetarian first for a few years. But the switch to being vegan was immediate.
16. (21?) Favorite animal activist and why
I really try not to play favorites with any of these things. I don’t like to glorify people. But Jane Goodall is the first to come to mind because she really understand her chimps the way that most people undertand their best friends.
17. (25?) What’s the most common question/comment you receive regarding being Vegan/Vegetarian?
Of course I used to get the classic “what about protein?” But past that it was always “You know God made animals for us to eat right?” as my followers well know I well know what the Bible does and does not say about animals.
18. (26?) Which question frustrates/annoys you the most regarding being Vegan/Vegetarian?
See the above question.
19. (27?) What are your thoughts on the quote- The punishment should fit the crime with regards to animal cruelty?
I do not believe in repaying suffering with suffering. I am in full agreement that animal abuse should be considered a crime and should include animals traditionally used for food. However, I do not agree with causing suffering to any being innocent or otherwise.
20. (28?) Favorite Cruelty free toiletries?
I really like the Naturally Fresh Deodorant Crystal because not only is it vegan, but it also does not have the harmful chemicals that some of the other deodorants have both vegan and non-vegan.
21. (29?) How do you feel about ‘humane’ farms eg. ones that genuinely allow their animals to roam freely until death?
There is no such thing as humane slaughter or humane exploitation. Farms that genuinely allow “free-range” don’t just let the animals live until they die naturally. These animals still have short lifespans and are regarded as nothing more important than the taste their meat and other products provide. You still end up killing them and that cannot be okay no matter how well you treat them before hand.
22. (30?) If you had to persuade someone to become Vegan/Vegetarian in one short paragraph, what would you say?
Veganism is about causing as little harm as possible. What is the downside to causing as little harm as possible. When we can live healthy complete lives without taking the lives and the freedom of other beings why would we not? People don’t eat meat because they have to, they do it because they want to. We pay to have near 60 billion animals slaughtered every single year literally because we feel like it. Vegans don’t want to make all the food taste bad or make everyone feel like awful people. All we want is to save these creatures that are worth saving. We are choosing to cause as little harm as possible, and there is simply no good reason against that. There is veganism and there is animal cruelty; there is no middle ground.
Questions for Vegans/Vegetarians. PLEASE ASK?!
- 1. How long have you been Vegan/Vegetarian?
- 2. What turned you Vegan/Vegetarian?
- 3. What's your favourite meat substitute?
- 4. Be honest, did you enjoy the taste of meat and/or dairy before giving it up?
- 5. What's your favourite dairy-free milk?
- 6. If you were to try and persuade someone to go Vegan/Vegetarian by showing them just 3 YouTube videos, what would you show them and why?
- 7. What's your favourite Vegan/Vegetarian meal and what's the recipe?
- 8. Do you take any vitamin supplements and if so what?
- 9. Favourite farm animal and why?
- 10. Have you ever been to a farm sanctuary?
- 11. Do you sponsor any animals and if so what species and what organisation are they with?
- 15. Favourite Vegan/Vegetarian celebrity and why?
- 16. Are your family also Vegan/Vegetarian? Regardless of the answer, how does this impact you?
- 17. Put these in order of most important reasons to go Vegan/Vegetarian to least- For the sake of the animals, for the sake of the environment, for the sake of finance and for the sake of your health. Why did you choose this order?
- 20. Was your transition to becoming Vegan/Vegetarian gradual or done in one go?
- 21. Favourite animal activist and why?
- 25. What's the most common question/comment you receive regarding being Vegan/Vegetarian?
- 26. Which question frustrates/annoys you the most regarding being Vegan/Vegetarian?
- 27. What are your thoughts on the quote- The punishment should fit the crime with regards to animal cruelty?
- 28. Favourite cruelty free toiletries?
- 29. How do you feel about 'humane' farms eg. ones that genuinely allow their animals to roam freely until death?
- 30. If you had to persuade someone to become Vegan/Vegetarian in one short paragraph, what would you say?
- Just send the number to my ask. I'll answer any of these tomorrow. (I have a thing today.)
Just finished knitting this 3D model of DNA. Again this is not for me, this one is for my genetics professor. It didn’t turn out quite as well as I had hoped, but still I think it is kind of neat :)
To say that God turns away from the sinful is like saying that the sun hides from the blind.
Made this rainbow scarf last week. It’s not for me but for my old Chemistry professor who absolutely loves the light spectrum and would totally wear something like this. I hope she likes it!
There are causes worth dying for, but none worth killing for